<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I would like to introduce our special guest for tonight. Glen Bredon is known in the Apple // world for many of his developments. Among them are Prosel, Merlin Pro and the Master Classic Desk Accessory.
I would like to welcome Glen and ask him if he would like to
make an opening comment.
<[glen] BREDON> Ok. Let me first clear up the Princeton thing. I live in Princeton, I do not teach there. I am a Professor at Rutgers Univ. In the dim dark past I was a Professor at Berkeley.
As for Apple, I started in 1979 with a 16K Apple ][ with
cassette storage and no knowledge of computers at all. After tiring of Lores Integer Basic graphics demos, I got into assembly language programming first with the mini-assembler and later with the PD assembler TED ][. It soon became clear that TED ][ needed many improvements and that led to my development of the Big Mac/Merlin family of assemblers. Since then, I have written a large number of programs, most notably the ProCMD package of added Basic commands, and the ProSel package of disk utilities.
And that brings us up to tonight.
Comments, questions?
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> Welcome Glenn to A2RT...glad to see ya here....I'll get this off the top..can you explain a little further about your prosel packagare and its utilities, what so great about them, etc..
<[glen] BREDON> Ok, I'll start with ProSel.
The ProSel program itself is a program selector. I wrote the first primitive version of it just after getting a hard disk in 1985, when I heard that Catalyst went for over $100. I soon added a hard disk Backup/REstore program, because I found the only existing program BACKUP // to be too slow.
Later, when large ram disks came in, I added the capability of backing up and restoring the ram disk very quickly. Other programs were then added to the package. The most notable is called Cat.Doctor and is a filer type program and, I think it is clearly the best of its class.
Also there is a volume repair utility called Mr.Fixit, a versatile block editor called Block Warden and a hard disk (etc) optimizer called Beach.Comber and so on, and so on.
Ok, I'll pause for breath now.
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> How much does this wonderful package cost and how does one get it?
<[glen] BREDON> ProSel costs $40 if you get it from me. There are a small number of "dealers" who sell it for less or more. It is now bundled with Sider hard disks, so in that case it costs nothing. There is an expanded version of Cat.Doctor called SiderFile that is now bundled with the tape backup subsystems sold by Sider.
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> How do we order if from you?
<[glen] BREDON> Just send a $40 check to me at 521 State Road, Princeton NJ 08540.
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> Thanx Glen. GA
<[Phil] P.JOHNSON> Glen what is your policy on Prosel updates for reg. users
<[glen] BREDON> I ask $5 for updates. I will also be uploading updates here sometime in the near future.
<[Phil] P.JOHNSON> thanks ga
<[Jay] JJJ> Have you ever considered/looked into setting up distibution of ProSEL through GEnie and CIS, so that when downloaded the $$ gets charged to whatever method of payment the user has? Seems more shareware authors would be getting paid that way.
<[glen] BREDON> I had a hard time getting anyone to be interested in distributing it, and so I did it myself and by the time people were interested in it I had already spent so much effort that I decided to keep all the profits.
<[Bob B.] RBARKER> ok, is ProSel compatible w/ Softswitch???
<[glen] BREDON> As far as I know it is, except for the disk cache that is in the package, and which MUST NOT be used with softswitch.
<[Bob B.] RBARKER> ok, thanks.
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> Changing the subject here..you have been with the II for a while. Where do you think Apple Is taking the II [besides the garbage dump :-)]
<[glen] BREDON> Loaded question?...
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> Moi???? <never> :-)
<[glen] BREDON> I could not even hazard a guess, but I sure hope it keeps on and on.
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> <grin>..OK..GA
<[Jay] JJJ> It will, we are proof of the II going forever!
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> How big is Merlin 8/16 currently?
<[glen] BREDON> That is really hard to answer. I'd have to think. The part that is always in memory is about 20K, but then there are three linkers, Sourceror, Xref etc, etc,
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> So you assemble and then link?
Do you run on a 64K apple or do you require a 128K //e or IIGS?
<[glen] BREDON> It requires a 128K //e or //c with a 65802 chip.
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> 65802??
<[glen] BREDON> Yes, 65802 or 65816.
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> (not a 65C02?)
<S.TOLANY> The 65802 is like a 65816 that can only use 64k.
<[glen] BREDON> Sorry, 65C02 is not good enough.
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> OIC Sorry
<[glen] BREDON> A 65802 can be had for under $25.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> What are your future plans for Merlin?
<[glen] BREDON> I don't have any firm plans, but I do expect to make a P16 version, although P16 development with Merlin-16 and ProSel is quite easy.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> yes, for me it only takes seconds to go between prodos 8 and 16, so i can see the lack of impetus for full p16 version; however, the future is with something like prodos 16 (fin for now).
<[glen] BREDON> Yes, I agree that P16 is the future. I do travel with a beefed up //c on which Merlin-16 runs, and would not like to lose that.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> seeing how apple bragged about II on a chip, we should see some small verision of IIGS (portable) soon (late 88)
<[glen] BREDON> That would be nice.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I think we all would love to see that, but do not hold your breath.
<[Jay] JJJ> I want to create a .SYM user file via the USR command. Where can I get docs for memory layout and pointers to the symbol table (ie, Merlin 8/16)?
<[glen] BREDON> I have a file that was put on a rival net that has some of those details. Anything specific you want to know, I'd be glad to provide. I should upload that here, and will if I don't forget.
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> [I will remind him] :-)
<[Jay] JJJ> Ok, I'll look for the other document on CIS (can I say that here?) what its called?
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> [searching around for the lighting bolts]
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Just as long as you call it CI$
<[Jay] JJJ> Please, I didn't know what came over me, Doug!
<[glen] BREDON> It is in DL3 and is near the top, probably with Merlin in the name or keywords.
<[Jay] JJJ> Many thanks. GA
<[Doug] D.DEXHEIMER> Glen, are there any parts of the ProSel package that run under the P16 operating system on the ][gs? Looks like you just answered my question!! Thanks for the neat utilities on ProSel, I especially enjoy Backup and Restore to /Ram5!
<[glen] BREDON> I don't have anything in ProSel that runs under P16 but I may add that later.
<S.TOLANY> Do you know anything about a faster version of the 65C816 and a 32-bit 65832. I heard Apple might offer a faster 65c816 (6 mhz.) as an upgtade.
<[glen] BREDON> Sorry to disappoint but I have heard the rumors too, but have no knowledge of it. If I did I probably could not say so.
I didn't on the GS, but I heard that the Apple enforcement was liable to be on my doorstep so I kept mum anyway.
<[Jay] JJJ> Apple SWAT!
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> For those of us here that don't have ProSel and don't know, what exactly does ProSel include and could you give a short description of each program? (If you've already been asked this, then disregard)
<[glen] BREDON> That would take a while, and I did outline it earlier.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Some of it has been answered but it is worth repeating!
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> OK then, nevermind. I sent the check in a couple of days ago and I just wanted to know what I could drool over!
<[glen] BREDON> The docs are over 55 pages.
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> (short description: VERY brief overview)
<S.TOLANY> Uh, I was wondering what the master desk accesories are?
<[glen] BREDON> ProSel: program selector, CatDoctor: excellent filer, Block Warden: block editor, Beach Comber: disk optimizer, Cache: what it say, Backup/Restore: HD or Ramdisk, and many I have forgotten.
<S.TOLANY> What are the master desk accesories?
<[glen] BREDON> The Master CDA is a CDA that can hold about 100 more CDAs, giving a capacity of over 1000 CDAs available on boot.
<S.TOLANY> Does it inclusde some CDA's?
<[glen] BREDON> I have some more CDAs and you can put them in the Master. The upload probably has a bunch.
<S.TOLANY> How about NDA's, a program for that would be nice?
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I just want to interject that I uploaded Glen's CDAs to library 17.
<[glen] BREDON> Yes, but I hardly use P16 these days.
<[Jay] JJJ> get TWOAPPLES for the NDAa
<S.TOLANY> TWOAPPLES?
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> By our famous SYSOP Tim Swihart.
<[Jay] JJJ> It puts two apple menus in the finder.
<S.TOLANY> How?
<[Jay] JJJ> And doubles the amount of NDAs you can have.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I believe it is in Library 18. Correct me if I am wrong, Doug.
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> Sounds good to me. [jumping at the chance to be "official"]
<S.TOLANY> Where did you I could get one for fonts?
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Anyone want to tackle that question?
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> I haven't seen one yet..
<[Jay] JJJ> I have no idea, Steve.
<S.TOLANY> Isn't there something similar to suitcase for the Mac?
<[Jay] JJJ> Yes, but it just makes DA active without rebooting
<S.TOLANY> What do you mean?
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Doug, want to help him out?
<[Jay] JJJ> To get a DA up running you have to pop in in the system folder and reboot. The program in question will allow you to get 'em in without rebooting.
<S.TOLANY> I mean for fonts.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Anyone have any ideas, if not we will move on for now.
<S.TOLANY> I have lots of fonts but can only fit fouteen 14 on my disk?
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> You need a hard drive, Steve.
<S.TOLANY> No, I mean in the menu?
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> GA, Doug.
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> Glenn..Have you thought of any NEW products you might be working on... [not enhancements to your exsisitng ones]
<[glen] BREDON> No, but I'mm sure some things will come up.
<[Jay] JJJ> Tell us more about ProCMD. I have limited knowledge of it.
<[glen] BREDON> ProCMD is a package of over two dozen added ProDOS Basic commands. Things like COPY, TYPE, COMPARE, USING (print...) edit, renumber., sort, eject, setinfo online, and a bunch of double hires routines: PLOT, XPLOT, DRAW, XDRAW, FILL.
<[Jay] JJJ> Is it memory based or disk based? Does it limit program space?
<[glen] BREDON> It limits space, but is modularized: You just have in memory the commands you want at that time. There is a command to get rid of all the commands, and there is one that finds and loads and executes anything you type that is not recognized and which is a command.
<[Jay] JJJ> How can I get it?
<[glen] BREDON> Call APPLE used to sell it but I have taken it back and I now sell it for $25.
<[Jay] JJJ> Very good, where is that checkbook!
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Glen, I use you Master Classic CDA and I love it. However, there are times when I must disable my mouse and use my Apple Graphics Tablet that is interfaced to slot 4. When I disable the mouse, it also disables the arrow moves in Master CDA. Is there any way to overcome this?
<[glen] BREDON> I don't know why that is. How do you "disable the mouse"?
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Change control panel setting from mouse port to my card.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> Tyler, I think this is a problem with the way Apple set up the slot assignments.
<[glen] BREDON> I'll take a look, it is probably some dumb Tool routine.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> They actually use the 256 byte ROM in their own code, so if you bank it out, out goes the mouse (sorry for intruding).
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Thats okay , Brian, I am always looking for help.
<[glen] BREDON> I will take a look and see if it can be overcome. Or I could easily reassemble a version without the mouse.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I'd prefer to keep the mouse in, but have the options of using the arrows when the mouse is disabled.
<[glen] BREDON> As I say, I don't know why it should not work without the mouse, I did notice that myself when I put a HD in slot 4, but I will look to see if I can figure out why it does not function with just the keys.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I know with your technical wizzardry, Glen, you will probably figure something out.
That's all I wanted to ask about, I know I can be a pain in the @$$. Just ask Apple about the SCSI ROM.
<[Library Mgr] A2.DOUG> ha ha ha
<[glen] BREDON> I was doing some minor revisions on the CDAs anyway. It is a way to keep me off the streets.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> Okay.. is it okay if I ask questions about standards as relating to Merlin 8/16? Assembler standards, that is?
<[glen] BREDON> Gee Brian, must you?
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> I'll make it short.
<[glen] BREDON> ok
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> You made the statement that 'Merlin follows the existing standard closely. Were you just referring to the few notes from Western Design Center about 65816 operands and mnemonics? Cause there sure ain't no assembler standard. By assembler standard I mean things like standard pseudo-ops, etc.
<[glen] BREDON> Yes, I mean something different by standards than you do. I just mean what is established in the data sheets. I don't think that there can be any standards for POs that people will go along with.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> See, I realize that changing things is a pain in the *%&$. But, wouldn't it be great if that book you bought (you meaning general) could be used with ANY assembler?
<[glen] BREDON> I don't think so. I really hate the ORCA stuff and would never do it that way. And the feeling is probably mutual.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> Just because there are standards doesn't require all assemblers to follow them. It gives the opportunity for standard ground; however, I don't care for the orca stuff either, and I'm hoping that won't become the standard.
<[Jay] JJJ> Along the lines of standards, what is being done about just cleaning up the 65816 opcodes and usage, if anything?
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> After all, the "rest of us" (merlin, lisa816, SC-Assembler) are closer to eeach other than APW/ORCA is to any. Stronger ossibility of the standard being very merlin and lisa compatible.
In regard to a proposal, I've posted one in the A2PRO section.
<[glen] BREDON> There are a lot of people who have used Merlin for many years and would string me up if I departed radically.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> I disagree. 95% of your code would remain unchanged and most of the rest could be converted automatically.
<[glen] BREDON> Could you just mail me one? 521 State Rd., Princeton NJ 08540.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> Sure. Anyone else who wants one, send me your address. It's big.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> We may be making history tonight, folks!
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> By the way, there is a meeting slated on June 10,11 at Western Design Center for this very matter. That's in Scottsdale, AZ (I think). If anyone is seriously interested in attending, send me mail.
<[glen] BREDON> Sorry, I never go to meetings ever, never!
<[Don Elton] DELTON> I think you'd have more luck pushing a standard if you just wrote macros to implement the standard for all the comm assemblers with macros capable of such and then people could try out what you suggest as a standard on their own assembler.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> seriously, this will be an important meeting.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Actually, it may be Mesa Arizona.
<[glen] BREDON> I have very good reasons, but would rather not explain.
<[Brian F.] HAL.LABS> And I don't think macros are the answer, after all, some of these things can't be done with macros. (macros are not the end all to programming).
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Shall we call it a night?
I would like to thank Glen for being our guest tonight on GEnie.
<[glen] BREDON> You are welcome.
<[Bob] PROTREE> Me too, thanks Glen, and I hope to see you around more!!!
<[Jay] JJJ> Thanks Glen, not only for being here, but for all the stuff you've written!
<[Jay] JJJ> (especially Merlin!)
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Next week we are scheduling Tom Weishaar of Open-Apple and of course the A2 section of GEnie.
The following week we will be having Chuck Carpenter of Applied Engineering.
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